A Crisis of Trust: A Conversation with Michael Osterholm (Episode 436)

Sam Harris speaks with Michael Osterholm about his new book, The Big One: How We Must Prepare for Future Deadly Pandemics. They discuss the lessons learned from the COVID-19 pandemic, the major mistakes made in the public health response—including lockdowns, school closures, and border policies—the science of airborne versus droplet transmission, the promise and controversy of mRNA vaccines, the reality of vaccine adverse events, the politicization of vaccine hesitancy, and the erosion of scientific institutions like the CDC and HHS under the Trump administration. Looking forward, they explore the characteristics of a future, more deadly pandemic—what Osterholm calls “The Big One”—and what we should be doing to prepare for it. Michael Osterholm, PhD, MPH, is Regents Professor, McKnight Presidential Endowed Chair in Public Health, and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy (CIDRAP) at the University of Minnesota. He is also a Distinguished Teaching Professor in the Division of Environmental Health Sciences, School of Public Health; a professor in the Technological Leadership Institute, College of Science and Engineering; and an adjunct professor in the medical school. In early 2025, Dr. Osterholm and colleagues founded the Vaccine Integrity Project, a key initiative dedicated to safeguarding vaccine use in the United States. He is also the author of the new book The Big One: How We Must Prepare for Future Deadly Pandemics. Website: https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/ X: @mtosterholm